Brandywell Stadium Development

[mickyroddy]

I was told that the money to finish the stadium was already agreed and it just required stormont to be functioning to have it signed off .
I asked Raymond Mc Cartney about this tonight on social media and Raymond responded..

Michael. The Reg Stadia Fund should now open for bids. The Council has already met with Officials in the past, so Brandywell well placed to get the funding. I don’t think Derry would have to move to Maginn. Karen Mullan, Sandra Duffy and I met with Council in relation to recent events and how they affect the NW. Brandywell one of the issues we discussed. Raymond Mc Cartney.

[stevebradley]

I was told that the money to finish the stadium was already agreed and it just required stormont to be functioning to have it signed off .
I asked Raymond Mc Cartney about this tonight on social media and Raymond responded..

Michael. The Reg Stadia Fund should now open for bids. The Council has already met with Officials in the past, so Brandywell well placed to get the funding. I don’t think Derry would have to move to Maginn. Karen Mullan, Sandra Duffy and I met with Council in relation to recent events and how they affect the NW. Brandywell one of the issues we discussed. Raymond Mc Cartney.

As they say 'the past is a different country'.

Stute weren't homeless when the Council were trying to get funding for the Brandywell in the past. And the funding pot can now deliver less than it could 3-4yrs ago (due to construction costs rising).

Time will tell and I obviously hope we get funding here. But I wouldn't be as confident as Raymond about it personally (though I've no doubt he's sincere in his belief). He also thinks the current Brandywell is "a world class facility" btw.

To repeat again our fundamental challenge on this - we already play in arguably the second best stadium for club football in NI ; it already got £1.5m from Stormont for its recent refurbishment ; and we very rarely fill the place. So on what basis can we expect to be considered a genuine priority for significant funding over other grounds like Solitude, the Oval, Stute etc which desperately need the funding much more than we do ?

Having a Sinn Fein Minister in charge of it all might help a bit - but presumably the funding will have to be allocated in a fairly transparent manner. Otherwise there is a genuine possibility of other clubs challenging the process legally. So it'll be interesting to see what criteria is agreed for distributing the money. Does anyone know if we have planning permission for a bigger Mark Farren Stand, as part of the original project application ?

[marcoloco]

Two things - was it not SF (possibly even Raymond) telling the press we now had a "world class stadium" when the photo opportunity came along last time?

Another really poor decision by those involved - when the contractor built the MF stand they put in the foundations then built the stand. For those not in the know the foundations are the disruptive bit that requires earth movements and heavy machinery on site. When they were doing the MF stand they had the opportunity to put in the foundations for the entire length of the new stand. BUT DIDN'T because it saved them a few quid at the time. Now construction costs are higher and to finish the job the still they need to return and dig new foundations either side of the current stand at a significantly higher cost, build time and disruption of the stadium. Couldn't run a raffle.

[KEVK]

If it were a choice to complete the Mark Farren Stand, or build some stands or terracing behind both goals then I would probably go for the terracing behind both goals.

Having watched Derry City for 30+ years in the Brandywell, I have always wanted to experience standing or sitting directly behind a goal - is that too much to ask for? Where would they place the training goals though?

[marcoloco]

If it were a choice to complete the Mark Farren Stand, or build some stands or terracing behind both goals then I would probably go for the terracing behind both goals.

Having watched Derry City for 30+ years in the Brandywell, I have always wanted to experience standing or sitting directly behind a goal - is that too much to ask for? Where would they place the training goals though?

There is/was money and a design with planning permission for the complete MF stand. You complete that first. The MF is completely exposed on a wet/windy evening and needs to be finished.

To deliver a structure behind any goal would require plans, planning, building regs, and money to build. Lets get the 2 stands finished. And then if we suddenly need 6K+ then maybe temporary seating would be a cost effective solution behind the goals.

[stevebradley]

Have looked up the planning application, and Brandywell does indeed have permission for a complete 2,400 seater Mark Farren Stand

That makes us a 'shovel ready' project, which puts us in a good position.

Link to planning docs here : http://epicpublic.planningni.gov.uk/pub ... 7JHSV30000

[marcoloco]

Have looked up the planning application, and Brandywell does indeed have permission for a complete 2,400 seater Mark Farren Stand

That makes us a 'shovel ready' project, which puts us in a good position.

Link to planning docs here : http://epicpublic.planningni.gov.uk/pub ... 7JHSV30000

Steve, of course they have planning permission and as the works have started there's no time limit on delivering the remaining 2/3! Besides you don't get planning permission for 1/3 of a stand... or 1/3 of anything for that matter I wasn't joking about the foundations. The Contractor could not believe that they were not instructed to deliver the foundations for the entire stand. It was an idiotic decision not to complete the ground works for the entire stand when the contractor was on site. The cost and time saving would have been immense compared to now costing it and returning and doing it piecemeal at a point in the future.

[stevebradley]

Have looked up the planning application, and Brandywell does indeed have permission for a complete 2,400 seater Mark Farren Stand

That makes us a 'shovel ready' project, which puts us in a good position.

Link to planning docs here : http://epicpublic.planningni.gov.uk/pub ... 7JHSV30000

Steve, of course they have planning permission and as the works have started there's no time limit on delivering the remaining 2/3! Besides you don't get planning permission for 1/3 of a stand... or 1/3 of anything for that matter I wasn't joking about the foundations. The Contractor could not believe that they were not instructed to deliver the foundations for the entire stand. It was an idiotic decision not to complete the ground works for the entire stand when the contractor was on site. The cost and time saving would have been immense compared to now costing it and returning and doing it piecemeal at a point in the future.

In fairness - you get planning permission for whatever you apply for tbh, so long as it's deemed appropriate. No reason why the current Matk Farren Stand couldn't have been all they applied for and got.

The good news is that it wasn't, and they applied and got permission for the full thing. It looks big in the drawings on the planning app !

The Foundations issue isn't ideal, but not the end of the world in all honesty. A waste of public money - but that sadly happens all the time with public projects. It didn't exactly suggest they were confident of the money for the rest of the structure coming through any time soon though.

[marcoloco]

Technically you can apply for anything, yes, but it would have been idiotic beyond belief to apply only for 1/3 of the MF stand when the intention was to deliver a complete stand. Separate stands could justify separate application, absolutely, but not separate components of the 'same stand'. Much in the same way that a developer doesn't seek a separate permission for every house on an estate.

Also, its not just the loss of revenue to the public purse - its the shortsightedness that bugs me. (But I guess that applies to almost all decisions coming out of Stormont) The disruption at the Brandywell (and to the Clubs that use it) will now be significant as and when they do finally return to do these works. When you stand back from it all its a simple project to deliver (a stand) but the City got shafted again and no political party was prepared to call it out for what it was at the time. That's why I would take anything RMC says with a large pinch of salt.

[doll]

Fresh consultation required before any payments are made from the sub-regional programme. The twelfth of never comes to mind.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/51194824


The Department for Communities says a fresh consultation needs to take place on sub-regional stadia funding, given the changes in football since 2015.

Five years ago, the Northern Ireland Executive allocated £36m for the sub-regional programme for local football.

Glentoran were set to receive £10m to redevelop the Oval, with £17m put aside for other stadia.




A department spokesperson said £36m was still available but would not commit to a timeframe or any extra money.

After the return of power-sharing to Stormont in January, the draft deal which sealed the return of the Northern Ireland Executive states an intention to complete the planned stadia programmes.

These include plans to upgrade Irish League venues and the Casement Park GAA stadium project.

What happened before the Executive collapsed?

In line with the Irish Football Association's 2011 Facility Strategy, the Stormont Executive had committed £36m to the development of football stadia after the completion of Windsor Park.

In its 2015 consultation, the then Department of Culture, Arts and Leisure (Now Department for Communities) had divided the pot of money into five areas.

The Oval was set to receive an investment of £10m so it would be suitable for "hosting high level competition matches with a moderate capacity level of 6,000 to 8,000 persons".

A second strand of £17m was made available to other Premiership clubs who were capable of hosting fixtures with a 5,000 capacity.
Casement Park: Stormont deal boosts hopes for completion of stadium project

They could apply for funding of up to £3m to provide "stadia which can sit at the hub of key communities and can offer quality football facilities and community facilities which bring revenues into the club tenants, thus making football in these areas more sustainable".

IFA Championship clubs were also set to receive a total of £3m, with a potential sum of £500,000 available to clubs who applied, while a further £3m would be put towards "a single high quality facility" for intermediate and junior football.

The final strand was meant to be a sum of £3m put towards a national training centre to "support current talent and nurture future generations".

A location for the proposed centre had not been determined but the minimum requirement for the site was 20 acres.

'Options are being considered'

The recommendations set out in 2015 had not been implemented before the collapse of the Executive.

Responding to BBC Sport NI, a spokesperson for the Department of Communities said that "there have been a number of changes" for football at various levels since the initial consultation exercise in 2015.

These include "ground criteria for different competitions, safety standards, the growth in the women's game, the changing needs of clubs and the expectations of those who follow the game."

The department said "options are therefore being considered on how to progress this in line with these changes" and "the Sub Regional Programme forward we ensure that it meets the current and future needs of the game."

"To do that, further work needs to be done to inform the development of detailed plans and that must involve the key stakeholders who oversee the game, operate the facilities, support football and play the sport.

"I will ask my officials to take forward work to engage with and seek the views of the football sector at all levels and disciplines and that will help frame the required timeline."

"Any additional financial requirement would need to be considered by the Executive," added the Departments spokesperson.

In a statement to BBC Sport NI, an Irish FA spokesperson said: "We welcome the return of the executive and look forward to engaging with the Minister on a range of matters in the weeks and months ahead."

[danny hale]

All island league may help
See meeting for fans on next week

https://www.belfastlive.co.uk/sport/foo ... t-17566714

[KEVK]

I was against the re-naming of the stadium in Ryan's name, but could also see potential future benefits at the time if Sinn Fein were willing to get behind it with the Foundation.

Having Sinn Finn, the Foundation, the Council and the Club working together on funding applications might just give us a little more political clout to get the funding to complete the Mark Farren Stand and maybe even get it up to standard for international underage tournaments which has been suggested recently.

But someone needs to point it out to Sinn Fein that it's not a world class facility and the current pitch will rule it out as a potential venue for high profile underage tournaments. I would also be surprised if the current alignment of the floodlights would pass for such tournaments as the shifting of the pitch has left the floodlights out of alignment and parts of the pitch are poorly lit during night time games.

[stevebradley]

I was against the re-naming of the stadium in Ryan's name, but could also see potential future benefits at the time if Sinn Fein were willing to get behind it with the Foundation.

Having Sinn Finn, the Foundation, the Council and the Club working together on funding applications might just give us a little more political clout to get the funding to complete the Mark Farren Stand and maybe even get it up to standard for international underage tournaments which has been suggested recently.

But someone needs to point it out to Sinn Fein that it's not a world class facility and the current pitch will rule it out as a potential venue for high profile underage tournaments. I would also be surprised if the current alignment of the floodlights would pass for such tournaments as the shifting of the pitch has left the floodlights out of alignment and parts of the pitch are poorly lit during night time games.

The issue with the sub-regional stadia funding is that demand exceeds supply. They'll therefore be doling the money out on the basis of pre-determined criteria - and potentially facing (and losing) legal challenges from clubs that miss out if there is any shenanigans involved. So the scope for SF to pull a stroke for Derry on this would appear to be limited.

The SF Communities Minister said the below last week in response to a question from Foyle SDLP MLA Sinead McLaughlin. The bit I've put in bold is key I think. If that's the main criteria for awarding funding, can we really say that Brandywell is going to make the cut ?

Deirdre Hargey MLA - Minister For Communities answered Oral Questions on Monday 3rd February ref Update Sub-Regional Stadia Programme for Soccer

Response from Minister Below:
"I am fully committed to delivering the Sub Regional Stadia Programme which was included in the “New Decade, New Approach” Agreement and is a priority for my Department. This programme will transform soccer at all levels by addressing the current and future needs of the game.

It provides a real opportunity to contribute to the delivery of wider government priorities and to address a range of social, economic and cultural issues. The Programme itself must be open and transparent. It is critical that any improvements to existing stadia or new developments prioritise health and safety provision, accessibility and inclusion as well as being sustainable and based on realistic needs.

A 12-week consultation on Programme proposals, based on an IFA Facility Strategy dated 2011, took place from 30 November 2015 closing on 22 February 2016. However, in the absence of Ministers, no decisions were made on Programme proposals or on financial allocations within the programme.
Given that the IFA strategy on which the consultation was based on is now nine years old and things have changed, I think it is right to take the time to review the Programme.

I have asked my officials to urgently engage with key strategic stakeholders including the IFA, the NI Football League and representatives from District Councils to help inform the development of detailed plans for delivering a successful Sub Regional Programme. Once this engagement has been completed, I will then consider proposals on how best to take the Programme forward."

[danny hale]

[marcoloco]

I've highlighted what i think looks of interest -

It provides a real opportunity to... address a range of social, economic and cultural issues.

The Programme itself must be... sustainable and based on realistic needs.

Based on the above points, can we put together a bid that would see the "completion" of works at Brandywell. I think so.

> social, economic and cultural issues - yes, we need a fit for purpose sub-regional stadium. Brandywell remains one of the most deprived areas in NI. And the completion of the stadium would enable the Council to explore hosting cultural opportunities, events, etc etc not currently possible.

> Is it sustainable and based on realistic needs? Depends. If we are looking at 'sub-regional" stadia then Derry has a good claim given that its being used by DCFC, Institute, and could be used for attracting events / tournaments not currently possible.

The question is - can others make a better case than Derry? Will Derry get a more favourable hearing given the ongoing University debacle? Would funding be a sweetner following the decision to bale out UU? Can Council use any City Deal ££ to help entice further investment from Stormont? Would Council want to do that...?

[stevebradley]

Based on the above points, can we put together a bid that would see the "completion" of works at Brandywell. I think so.

I really think you're looking at this with rose-tinted glasses Marco.

> social, economic and cultural issues - yes, we need a fit for purpose sub-regional stadium. Brandywell remains one of the most deprived areas in NI. And the completion of the stadium would enable the Council to explore hosting cultural opportunities, events, etc etc not currently possible.

Brandywell is already fit for purpose. It works perfectly well as a club ground for DCFC and Stute, without significant further money needing to be spent on it.

As for hosting cultural events at Brandywell - why ? The Council already has Ebrington for outdoor events, and rarely uses it. It's in a much better, more central and neutral location too. Brandywell is not a good location for events. It's in a densely-packed residential area with poor/narrow access, it's hardly neutral space, and it has a reputation for anti-social behaviour. Would the council's use of rate payers money to hold city-wide events there even pass an Equality Impact Assessment for example ? I honestly think it's pie in the sky to think that the Brandywell is going to become a regular cultural hub for the city. And even if it did, how would that realistically address deprivation in the Brandywell area ?

> Is it sustainable and based on realistic needs? Depends. If we are looking at 'sub-regional" stadia then Derry has a good claim given that its being used by DCFC, Institute, and could be used for attracting events / tournaments not currently possible.

If we look objectively at the issue of realistic need, it's hard to make an argument for the Brandywell to be extended by much, if even at all. It's far too big for Stute, and is more than adequate for DCFC for 95%+ of games. So I just can't see where we can genuinely claim realistic need here ? At best it might be able to make a case for an extra few hundreds seats or terracing somewhere (e.g. behind the nets) - but adding 2,500 or so ?

he question is - can others make a better case than Derry?

I've no doubt they can. Glentoran will surely be a shoe-in for some sort of funding. Cliftonville should also get a chunk, because their main stand is largely condemned (the health and safety and accessibility aspect of the funding). Crusaders will be hopeful of getting some to replace their main stand, which is also approaching the end of its life-span. And then there's teams like Carrick and Dungannon, who's stadia really need a lot spent on them. Larne, have an entirely un-used side of their ground. Coleraine's ground could do with investment. Portadown's needs work. Basically every club in the IL except Linfield and Ballymena will feel it has a case.

Never mind outside Derry - my biggest fear is that there are others WITHIN Derry who can make a far better case than us. Stute will have to be a shoe-in for funding here, particularly if they stay in the top tier. They hands down have a better claim than we do on every single criteria. Especially if the proposal to have a facility in the Ebrington/Limavady Road area goes ahead, as they can tick the box for regeneration and community impact etc there. Will Derry realistically get funding for 2 stadia from this pot - especially when one doesn't really need it ?

Will Derry get a more favourable hearing given the ongoing University debacle?

Would funding be a sweetner following the decision to bale out UU?

No. As already pointed out, the distribution of this money will be done on a clear scoring basis. Otherwise there will be legal problems. The reason why it wasn't distributed prior to now was that Crusaders took the DfC to court over the proposal that Glentoran would automatically be getting funding. If Brandywell was extremely close to making the grade here there could be the possibility of it potentially having a an extra point or so slipped its way. But that would be tricky to do. And I honestly don't think we'll be that close anyway.

Can Council use any City Deal ££ to help entice further investment from Stormont? Would Council want to do that...?

No and No. That's not what the City Deal funding is designed to do.

I don't want to sound negative about this - but if we look at it dispassionately Brandywell is already a stadium that is modern, fit for purpose, has no health and safety or accessibility issues, and more than meets the needs of its users. So on what basis would we see funding ahead of a homeless club like Stute, and some of the other awful grounds in the north like Glentoran and Carrick ?

I hope I'm wrong on this, but I don't see how we have a strong case at all here. I think our strongest card would be if we could prove that the stadium was running at or close to capacity on a constant basis, as we could then at least evidence need. That is the one thing that is in our hands as a club (e.g. by giving out free tickets to schools etc). If I was the club I would be ensuring that every single game this season - particularly over the next few months - is a full house, and ensuring the world knows about it. I would argue that this is strategically vital if we're to have a shot at funding to complete the Mark Farren Stand.

[rodgers]

If it could be argued that the purpose of the stadium was to be the premier football stadium in the NW for top level football eg higher level European games or underage competitive internaitonals, then it wouldn't be for fit for purpose. And some argument might be made on that point.

Council in their words, are a 'facilities provider' so they don't seem to have much of a strategy for the stadium that would be of long term benefit to the region as a whole.

[marcoloco]

Steve good feedback, thanks.

I think you need to look at any bid for funding through rose tinted glasses otherwise we'd never get anything. Even when there's a business case in strong support money doesn't always materialise and conversely when there's only a hint of a business case we see others secure funding. So with that in mind you need to be positive but i take your point that you also need to be a realist.

Agree that Brandywell is now, thankfully, fit for purpose. But with any bid you need a vision and some creative narrative. Will Council opt to support a Stute bid in favour of completing the Brandywell? Or will they make two bids - good points. Would make for an interesting debate and vote in our Council Chamber.

The Cultural events attracted to a revamped Brandywell would be outdoor sporting in nature and not confined to football. Hence, not events that could be turned over to Ebrington which is more of an outdoor music and cultural event space. And I don't believe that Derry (or any other location for that matter) will become, thriving cultural hubs. I think 'sub-regional' and 'thriving cultural hub' is a contradiction!

Also, could we not integrate into the finished stand other complimentary sporting / health uses - public gymnasium, or sports / medical / offices - try and create a cluster of sporting related uses for those using the stadium regularly that local people can also make use of... to build the business case?

The likes of the Glentoran, Cliftonville, Cruesaders - all Belfast... Would they meet sub-regional criteria?
As you point out if Institute drop out then that could scupper their plans for something of merit.

[stevebradley]

I think you need to look at any bid for funding through rose tinted glasses otherwise we'd never get anything. Even when there's a business case in strong support money doesn't always materialise and conversely when there's only a hint of a business case we see others secure funding. So with that in mind you need to be positive but i take your point that you also need to be a realist.

Don't forget that the recent refurb of Brandywell already received something like £1.7m from Stormont (sum from memory). So the stadium has already had a decent chunk of money from there as it is. As the Minister has clearly stated, this funding will be allocated in a clear and transparent basis. Had Bramdywell not been refurbed in 2018 we'd probably have a very good chance of qualifying now. But as things currenrly stand, I honestly think we'll struggle.

Agree that Brandywell is now, thankfully, fit for purpose. But with any bid you need a vision and some creative narrative. Will Council opt to support a Stute bid in favour of completing the Brandywell? Or will they make two bids - good points. Would make for an interesting debate and vote in our Council Chamber.

I'm pretty sure that Stute will be filing any bids for stadium funding on their own. They might get a bit of help with the land, but they're not looking to have the council create a stadium for them (like us). They want to be masters of their own destiny, and have a facility that meets their needs and can also generate non-matchday income. Something that we struggle with.

The Cultural events attracted to a revamped Brandywell would be outdoor sporting in nature and not confined to football. Hence, not events that could be turned over to Ebrington which is more of an outdoor music and cultural event space. And I don't believe that Derry (or any other location for that matter) will become, thriving cultural hubs. I think 'sub-regional' and 'thriving cultural hub' is a contradiction!

What sort of events are you realistically thinking of here ? Why would they come to Derry ? How often ? And even if they did want to use Derry, why the Brandywell - given the issues I raised previously re the site ?

Also, could we not integrate into the finished stand other complimentary sporting / health uses - public gymnasium, or sports / medical / offices - try and create a cluster of sporting related uses for those using the stadium regularly that local people can also make use of... to build the business case?

That would be for council to decide. And it would cost more money too. If it isn't in their current thinking, there isn't much time to add it realistically.

The likes of the Glentoran, Cliftonville, Cruesaders - all Belfast... Would they meet sub-regional criteria?

Yes. Sub-regional just means 'not NI-wide' - like stadia for the NI football team, Ulster Rugby, and Ulster GAA finals (allegedly). It doesn't matter if it's in Belfast if the need can be demonstrated and it meets the criteria.

As you point out if Institute drop out then that could scupper their plans for something of merit.

There is funding for stadia at clubs in the lower tiers. And I wouldn't be surrpised if an understandable exception was made for Stute even if they were relegated. Plus - if they're still in the top tier when the applications open, they'd probably still be covered IMO.

[stevebradley]

If it could be argued that the purpose of the stadium was to be the premier football stadium in the NW for top level football eg higher level European games or underage competitive internaitonals, then it wouldn't be for fit for purpose. And some argument might be made on that point.

Council in their words, are a 'facilities provider' so they don't seem to have much of a strategy for the stadium that would be of long term benefit to the region as a whole.

NI games at Brandywell ? Being honest it's a potential can of worms, even if it was only underage.

Higher level European games ? Involving who ? The stadium currently meets the realistic needs of any north-west team in European football. Would the Mark Farren work even lift us into the next UEFA Stadium Category level anyway ? If not, then the argument doesn't wash (as difficult as it is to realistically make anyway).

Even if things like that could be attracted to the Brandywell - how often are we realistcially talking about ? Once every couple of years ? I just can't see this stuff being deemed realistic need tbh. Not when money is limited and it's up against stadia which are half-condemned/vacant and a team which was rendered homeless by a flood.