Brandywell Stadium Development

[daniel]

So, KevK, who's funding a new stadium?

Who's funding our team ?

Who's funding our new Academy ?

So we ask POD to build a stadium? Surely you're not suggesting that?

[TenaciousDee]

With the limited space and options, I think this looks decent

Net storage behind the stand when complete. KevK's years of torment will soon come to an end.

[stevebradley]

So, KevK, who's funding a new stadium?

Who's funding our team ?

Who's funding our new Academy ?

So we ask POD to build a stadium? Surely you're not suggesting that?

It's up to POD what he chooses to spend his money on.

And he is obviously interested in spending a lot of it on Derry City. So the main issue is not if - but rather around what aspects of the club he spends it on.

It's my belief that the greatest legacy our Chairman could leave to the club and the city is for us to have a proper home of our own. One that we either own or have a proper long lease on, can maximise matchday and non-matchday income and communtiy impact via, can have whatever playing surface we want on etc etc.

He's probably spent enough on the team over the years - with very little silverware to show for it - thet he could have secured our future at a new stadium by now anyway.

I'm also concerned about how will we be able to remain a competiitve club once POD's money tap inevitably turns off.

But like I said - it's his money, so it's up to him. Doesn't mean I can't have an opinion on it all. If I was in his shoes I'd personally be thinking long-term legacy and the club's financial security, rather than focusing largely on the playing side of things to almost win the league. He's already started spending money on a stand that neither he nor the club will ever own btw - so how much of a leap is it from that onto a pitch and other stands ?

BTW - I've outlined numerous times before a route to this city having a new purpose-built mixed-use civic stadium at Templemore, which the cliub /Chairman would only have to make part-contributiosn towards the cost of. So he would only need to contribute towards part od the cost of building us a stadium.

[stevebradley]

With the limited space and options, I think this looks decent

Agree. It's a great proposal for the space involved.

[marcoloco]

For me, any discussion on legacy should focus on an elite player academy facility.

That is where the long term sustainability of the club will rest.

Something that helps attracts players and helps improves players.

An elite - professional club operates 365 days of the year. Not just the 20 odd home games.

Get the academy right and we'll not need sustained investment post - POD days.

[stevebradley]

For me, any discussion on legacy should focus on an elite player academy facility.

That is where the long term sustainability of the club will rest.

Something that helps attracts players and helps improves players.

An elite - professional club operates 365 days of the year. Not just the 20 odd home games.

Get the academy right and we'll not need sustained investment post - POD days.

I think you're overestimating how many players can be identified, signed, retained, developed and sold from within what is a relatively small catchment area population-wise. How much money have we made in transfers over the last decade for example ? It's basically James McClean, Ronan Curtis and Aaron McEneff isn't it - none of whom went for big money. Now compare that to how much we've spent on players (and the fact we've not won very mcuh either). An Academy will definitely help us, but we're just not going to be able to assemble and finance a genuinely and consistently competitive club from this region alone. So an Acedemy will not solve our money issues on its own re once the POD tap turns off.

Regardless - why not have the Academy based at a new stadium anyway? Why can the two things not be combined together? It doesn't have to be an either/or.

I also think you're underestimating the ability a stadium offers to raise revenue and to strengthen links with the community on non-matchdays as well as matchdays. There's a reaosn why the vast majority of football clubs own their own stadia. We're the odd ones out here within the game.

[rodgers]

Duffy, Rory Holden and Kone Doherty aren't in that list. I believe all were six figure sums.

I think you're underestimating the importance Steve.

I don't think it applies as much to Derry but there seems to be a general feeling across the rest of the LOI that the recent surge in crowds is partly down to the increase in LOI underage teams.

[stevebradley]

Duffy, Rory Holden and Kone Doherty aren't in that list. I believe all were six figure sums.

I think you're underestimating the importance Steve.

Good shout re those players (and my bad for not thinking of them).

I'm not underestimatig the financial importance of transfers. I just don't believe we can bankroll a consistently competitive club off the back of them. We're porbably spending how much on our squad every year - over £1 million? Are we making over a million every year on transfers? Not even close to it. The problem as well is that you can't plan long-term with certainty on the revenue from transfers, as t depends on who you can unearth, whether they can stay injury free, who's interested in them, do they progress so you get the add-ons etc. I just can't see how we can build a title challenging team every year with an Academy as our main source of both talent and revenue. It definitely has a big part of play, but isn't enough on its own in my view.

I don't think it applies as much to Derry but there seems to be a general feeling across the rest of the LOI that the recent surge in crowds is partly down to the increase in LOI underage teams.

I've not heard that suggested before, and I don't think ti stands up to be honest. There has been a surge in crowds in football in lots of places. The Irish League has seen a big increase too, as has non-league in England. So this is not just isolated to the LOI. There seems to be have been a lingering hunger for live sport after Covid, and probably also some degree of disatisfacton with top level football. Plus in the LOI I would say clubs like Bohs are bearing the fruits of consistet hard work to grow the club's brand in teir local areas. Pats are continuing a bounce they got after the 2021 Cup Final. And Rovers have been on a steady upwards trajctory for crowds for some time now, helped by European results and league success.

If underage teams were the reason for rising support in the LOI, Cabinteely would have had huge crowds and not dropped out/been swallowed by Bray. They're apparently the biggest club on the island with all the kids on their books. Yet they struggled to get into 3 figures in terms of home support at their matches.

[rodgers]

Hi Steve, thanks. If you re read my post you will see I said partly so I don't disagree with a lot of what you say anyway.From memory, I would have heard that view expressed on things like the LOI Central podcast and just conversa
conversation generally.

I would agree with you in any event about grounds. Duff gave an interview recently where he said money should go to player facilities rather than fan facilities. I would also disagree with that.

[marcoloco]

A few things...

An academy gives us a home. Currently we mess about across various pitches across the city. It's not ideal nor professional.

Our catchment is northwest for younger players. But attracting established players from Scotland, England and LOI teams that net is much wider and you need to sell the club, the facilities, the city to them.

Also, we need to grow the admin and sports science, recovery, diet and data analysis side of the club. You need office space and facilities to do that.

I also think its wide of the mark to talk about connections with the community. The residents in the Brandywell have a longstanding connection with the Club. Many great players have grown up there and to suggest that we need a new stadium in Templemore to connect with the community.

Also, you need to go and check out the use of the stadium on non match nights. To see that being used by a wide spectrum of younth and kids teams makes you realise what already exists there is actually working very well already to foster the next generation of players and fans.

[stevebradley]

A few things...

An academy gives us a home. Currently we mess about across various pitches across the city. It's not ideal nor professional.

Our catchment is northwest for younger players. But attracting established players from Scotland, England and LOI teams that net is much wider and you need to sell the club, the facilities, the city to them.

Also, we need to grow the admin and sports science, recovery, diet and data analysis side of the club. You need office space and facilities to do that.

I'd agree with you about the things an Academy would do for the club. And you wonlt find me arguing against us having an Academy. My point is that an Academy alone, or even largely alone, will not secure this club's future. And then there is the key question - why can all the Academy benefits, facilities, activities etc you've outlined not be provided as part and parcel of a new stadium location? It would be an efficient use of space and money if nothing else.

I also think its wide of the mark to talk about connections with the community. The residents in the Brandywell have a longstanding connection with the Club. Many great players have grown up there and to suggest that we need a new stadium in Templemore to connect with the community.

But 'the community' for Derry City is not - and should not - be restricted to a few hundred metres around where it plays. Our community is the entire city and its hinterland - for me as far as Limavady, Dungiven, south of Strabane plus all of Inishowen. If that's your definition of the community, then the Brandywell population is a tiny drop in the ocean, and not enough to focus on largely. Also - a quarter of this city is from a protestant/unionist background. And whilst there are some people from that background who do attend our games, it is nowhere like 25% of our crowd (I doubt its even 5% to be honest). So if we want to represent and be supported by the whole city, then we are faiing in that mission currently. Some people will say there's nothing we can do to appeal more towards people from a unionist background, or that we shouldn't bother. But personally I disagree. There will be a range of reasons why those from a PUL background generally don't view Derry City as being of relevance to them, or a club that is for them. Some are more difficult to tackle than others,and not everyone will be minded to view the club as their's. But I'm convinced a lot more thna currently do would be more open-minded. So those issues that curretly stop that increased support and which can be tackeld I personally want to see the club making a consistent effort to do so. To not make an effort to appeal to a large chunk of your potential support base is non-sensical and will limit the club's attendances, revenue and potential.

We donlt need a stadium in Templemore per se to connect better with the community. What we DO nned to do that is a stadium that we control (and ideally also one that's in a more neutrak area, not surrounded by paramilitary paraphehrnalia. A stadium which we can open up for homework clubs, foodbanks, kids camps, salsa lessons, karate, knitting - whatever the community wants to do/needs, in a place that they view over time as being a genuine community hub ratehr than just a football building to maybe visit 20 times a year for a match. And a fcailtiyt which can be made available for the community,, with the credit for that gooijg to Derry ratehr than the council (who's bureaucracy makes it more tricky for it to be made available anyway). Because that is the key thing -that Derry City gets the credit and starts to form and deepen its bonds with the community via its facilities.

Also, you need to go and check out the use of the stadium on non match nights. To see that being used by a wide spectrum of younth and kids teams makes you realise what already exists there is actually working very well already to foster the next generation of players and fans.

I do. I was there last ngiht for example and there were young kids training on the pitch. But the activities go on there because it's a councl-run faciity - and not because of Dery City FC. If DCFC disappeared tomorrow, the majority of activites at the Brandywell would continue without us. We're not the ones enabling most of the activities there, and we're therefore not the ones getting the credit for it and deepening our roots with the community through it. I dont know if you're familiar with what clubs at all levels of the game in England and Scotland do via Community Foundations, but there are some great examples of where the power and appeal of football is used by a club to genuinely improve things in their local community, with the club getting an uplift in support and appeal as a result. Every LOI club should have a Community Foundation IMO (I'd ake it a livcensing requirement, as it is at a lot of leves in English football), but the difficulty we have is that the Ryan McBride Foundation have largely filled that space here rather than the club (and the club understandably doesn't get the full benefit/credit from the activities that the Foundation runs).

Are you honestly saying that nothing would either improve or have the potential to improve for Derry City - in terms of revenue, matchday vibe, community activities/support etc etc - if we controlled our own stadium?

P.S. I cant think of a single football club or fan base which views its Academy as being its home. It's always the stadium that fulfills that role.

[marcoloco]

If money and land was available in large quantities then yes, a new all purpose stadium and academy would be great. But neither is available. We play in LOI and land opportunities are restricted. So you make the best of what's available. And yes, of course, a new modern stadium with better catering, shops etc would 100% improve revenues. No argument. That's where the Brandywell falls down.

But the Brandywell was, is and will be the Clubs - fans home. But the Club is now operating full time, with many different age groups, men and women teams so you need a day-to-day home. You need a facility to run that operation but the Brandywell is not it.

This years CL final is contested by two teams that play in Council owned stadiums. Irelands biggest and most successful team play in a Council owned stadium. So lets dispel any myth that Council owned stadiums are the problem.

Community connection (which is fan base) is vital for every club. Derry's heart is in the Brandywell but their reach, their catchment is the North West region - both sides of the border. The community reach work that you reference is more reliant on the Club structure being in place. It's not geographical. There's no reason we can't perform that community reach work from any base in the City. If the Academey is based in the Brandywell, Northland Road, Templemore, Culmore etc - its makes no difference. Its having the structure in place thats most important.

You say those kids are not from across the City but on Wednesday night there were teams from Newbuildings, Irish Street, etc all involved and playing in the Brnadywell. No DCFC dont get any credit but those kids and their families are coming across and playing in the Brandywell and who's to say they wont then come to a match or play for the club at some level. So again, this idea of neutral areas is a something that can be over played. The club are not sectarian in any way so its an inviting atmosphere in that respect.

Also, we need to recognise that Institute have their catchment in the waterside. So you can't expect everyone to follow you. I'd like to think in years to come in an all ireland league we'll be playing Institute home and away at BraNdywell and CPW.

[stevebradley]

If money and land was available in large quantities then yes, a new all purpose stadium and academy would be great. But neither is available. We play in LOI and land opportunities are restricted. So you make the best of what's available. And yes, of course, a new modern stadium with better catering, shops etc would 100% improve revenues. No argument. That's where the Brandywell falls down.

Sorry Marco - but this doesn't stand up at all. We have a multi-bilionaire owner who pays for the team, is paying for an Academy, and is now building parts of a stadium we don't own. So I'm sorry - but money clearly IS no object. The only object is what he personally wants to spend on. That's choice, not availablity.

As for land - really ? There is plenty of land available in Derry. And I've already identified what I believe is a perfect oportunity at Templemore. Where the council has an existing sporting complex in dire ned if major surgery which it can't afford to do. Where there is plenty of land available which is already zoned for sports and lesiure. Where there is a large and fast-growing community on its doorstep that will eventually number tens of thousands of people within only a mile of the facility. Wjre the stadium isn;t surrounded on all sides by shrines and symbols for paramilitaries. And where there are housebuilders who will have to pay for improved community facilities, sports facilities etc in that area as a result of the planning obligations for bulding those houses. All of which bundles up to make Templemore a great opportunity for a mixed-use, multi-sport civic campus that would be benefit both the club and the city as a whole, and which Derry City would only need to pay part of. Derry isn't Singapore or Hong Kong in land terms. Even Stute have been able to find a new home within less than 2 miles of the City Walls.

But the Brandywell was, is and will be the Clubs - fans home.

The Brandywell is and will be our home. But only until such a point as it is no longer fit for that purpose and starts to hold us back. At which stage we'll 100% do what every other club does and relocate. I get the nostalgia aspect about stadia for some people, but personally I'd rather watch a team that is successful and wins things than one which sticks rigidly to a particular patch of grass because circumstance just happens to have put it there randomly years ago. If we hadn't gone bust in the early 90s we'd probably be playing on the Buncrana Road now already, as the club bought land there for a new stadium at that time. Or if the old Derry City hadn't dithered we'd have been playing in Celtic Park since the 1930s - which was the original home of football in the city anyway, and was ony bought by te GAA because Derry City were offered it and couldn't make up their mind. It's a good thimg the 'Gang of 4' didn't decide that the Irish league was Derry's traditional home and where we'd always played in the 1980s too, or we'd have never joined the LOI

But the Club is now operating full time, with many different age groups, men and women teams so you need a day-to-day home. You need a facility to run that operation but the Brandywell is not it.

One of the solutions to that would be to have a new stadium at Templemore, and then retain use of the Brandywell for the club's Academy and for local football. Which would provide a good home for our underage teams, ladies team, the D&D and other council activities there, whilst also keeping a connection betwee DCFC and the Brandywell for those who view that as important.

This years CL final is contested by two teams that play in Council owned stadiums. Irelands biggest and most successful team play in a Council owned stadium. So lets dispel any myth that Council owned stadiums are the problem.

The big difference of course being the terms of use of those stadiums. Man City have a long-lease on City of Manchester Stadium, which gives them a lot of freedom over what happens there. We're just tenants at the Brandywell, so don't have that control. Do you think Mna City would put up with a pitch they tell the world they're not happy wiht? They don't have to - whilst we do. Regardless - this year's CL Final is the exception that proves the rule. If not owning your own club was the way forwards for football, then why do more clubs not do it ? That's the bottom line.

Community connection (which is fan base) is vital for every club.

I couldn't disagree more strongly with your opening line. Community connection is about EVERYONE in your community - not just those who happen to support the club today.

Derry's heart is in the Brandywell but their reach, their catchment is the North West region - both sides of the border. The community reach work that you reference is more reliant on the Club structure being in place. It's not geographical. There's no reason we can't perform that community reach work from any base in the City. If the Academey is based in the Brandywell, Northland Road, Templemore, Culmore etc - its makes no difference. Its having the structure in place thats most important. [/auote]

You're just making my point for me here mucker. Where we're located broadly doesn't matter (although in NI it does a lot more than other places, fpr reasons we all know), Its' the control over the stadium that we use which is key. We can't currently do what we want for the local community out of the Brandywell, because we don' own it. If there was a big flood or fire in the area, for example, we as a club couldn't send someone down with the keys at night to open the facility up to provide shelter, food and accmmodation for people who needed it. Because it's not our place. We don't have the abilityt to do what we want to help the community within which we currently exist, because we are not masters of our own facility. I'm not sure why you're not taking this on board in all honesty. We also won't be masters of the Academy facility either btw, as that is a joint venture with UU on their land. UU who have, of course, lied constantly to the people of Derry for over 2 decades and are literally holding back this city's potential and economic development by constanly prioritising Belfast over ourselves. And who had to be forced onto buying that land for university expansion, and are not instead in cahoots with DCFC to put an LI academy there instead. But hey - let's team up with an organisation like that which repeatedly sh!ts on our city and then tell everyone that we're all about community )

You say those kids are not from across the City but on Wednesday night there were teams from Newbuildings, Irish Street, etc all involved and playing in the Brnadywell. No DCFC dont get any credit but those kids and their families are coming across and playing in the Brandywell and who's to say they wont then come to a match or play for the club at some level. So again, this idea of neutral areas is a something that can be over played. The club are not sectarian in any way so its an inviting atmosphere in that respect.

Again - you're jsut making my point for me here Marco. It doesn't matter who comes to the Brandywell currently - they're not there for Derry City. We get none of the credit for that. We are not the one's building a relationship off the back of that. So it is a big leap for them to go from having no interest in Derry City to having one, just because someone else took them to play football at a council facility that we also use. By that logic they're just as likely to take an interest in supporting Stute as a result of visiting Brandywell (if not even more so, because of the perceived religious/cultural connection). If we had our own facility we could organise specific out-reach activities to kids from the Fountain, Newbuildings, Irish Street etc. We could work over time - and it woudl take time - with schools,community centres, youth clubs, sports clubs, etc in those areas to make people there feel that we're their local team too. We could use our faciltiies to get them together with kids from nationalist areas (there's always lots of funding available for this type of work). I would again urge you to look up some of the work that the award winning versions of Football in the Community programmes do in England and Scotland do to help both improve their communities and increase their own appeal in the process. I saw it myself at Bath City when I lived there - where te club more than doubled its suport base over a 6 yr period by continuously woking on improving links and activity with the commnity throughout the city and beyond, and genuonely repositioning itself as a 'communty club'.

Also, we need to recognise that Institute have their catchment in the waterside. So you can't expect everyone to follow you. I'd like to think in years to come in an all ireland league we'll be playing Institute home and away at BraNdywell and CPW.

I watch Stute, and the home support is tiny (and outnumbered when they play clubs like Ards and even Dergview). I also watched them when they played in Drumahoe and it was little better re home fans (despite them being at a higher level for a lot of that time). Comparing Stute to Derry City is like comparung Gateshead FC to Newcastle United. It's even less comparable in our case - because Gateshead and Newcastle play identical seasons and have fixtures that often clash. You could have a season ticket for both Stute and Derry City and not miss a home match for either team as they play different seasons on different days. They are not genuine contenders for our support, and it is very easy to go see both clubs (and not that expensive either). I have never in my life had to choose between watching Derry play or watching Stute, because they never ever clash (and not just because of the Brandywell).

[marcoloco]

So a recap.

1. We need POD to chip £25 - 30M for a stadium and academy
2. We need Council to gift or sell us the land
3. Replacing the surface at Brandywell has been ruled out despite it only having a few years remaining before its outlawed and reaches end of life
4. Community is everyone but not everyone will be interested in DCFC - GAA have much of the City tied up and Institute have their catchment in the heart of the waterside where they will soon relocate. We are competing for a fanbase not only geographically but across different sports too.
5. DCFC are a community club. But if you need a stadium for ppl in an emergency situation (like COVID) I can't imagine there being any issues using Council run facilities as we've seen recently.
6. When youngsters of 5,6,7 play at the Brandywell they dont know who owns it. Most Derry fans of a young age wouldn't know. Everyone associates DCFC with the Brandywell - so to suggest that we would get no benefit from these kids playing there is hard to accept. Derry have only played there since 1929.
7. Yes, you can watch 2 different teams, 3 if you follow GAA and even teams from across the water but the reality is most ppl chose a local team to support. Thats the reality.

[stevebradley]

So a recap.

1. We need POD to chip £25 - 30M for a stadium and academy
2. We need Council to gift or sell us the land
3. Replacing the surface at Brandywell has been ruled out despite it only having a few years remaining before its outlawed and reaches end of life
4. Community is everyone but not everyone will be interested in DCFC - GAA have much of the City tied up and Institute have their catchment in the heart of the waterside where they will soon relocate. We are competing for a fanbase not only geographically but across different sports too.
5. DCFC are a community club. But if you need a stadium for ppl in an emergency situation (like COVID) I can't imagine there being any issues using Council run facilities as we've seen recently.
6. When youngsters of 5,6,7 play at the Brandywell they dont know who owns it. Most Derry fans of a young age wouldn't know. Everyone associates DCFC with the Brandywell - so to suggest that we would get no benefit from these kids playing there is hard to accept. Derry have only played there since 1929.
7. Yes, you can watch 2 different teams, 3 if you follow GAA and even teams from across the water but the reality is most ppl chose a local team to support. Thats the reality.

This is so far off the mark Marco that I'm not even going to bother responding to it

For example - Not once did I mention or even suggest the council gifting or selling us Templemore. Instead I've stated clearly a different route (i.e. a long lease on the facility, with the club contributing some of the costs towards a new stadium there [no - not £25-30m either], and the rest of the funding coming from a mixture of sources). But if you can read what I state pretty clearly on all of this and then claim I'm saying something completely different instead, then there genuinely isn't much point in trying to continue the discussion. Apologies.

[marcoloco]

Steve you've stated many times that POD has the means and that's where the £25 to £30M would come from to deliver this project. At least you are not disputing the cost and we can agree on that element.

Even if the lands was purchased (at not a significant cost, gifted or leased at a pittance) the bulk of the cost of delivering the multi use stadium and academy is in the construction stage and this amount is huge for a LOI Club. To now suggest we explore other funding streams is not really viable.

We've seen how the MF stand was delivered (half arsed) and how long its taking. We are still waiting for the Gov to reopen their stadium fund so we can reapply. The amount remains unchanged 35m but the number of clubs applying for that is increasing every year not to mention build cost inflation. There's simply no public money available. Which is why your proposal falls down at the first hurdle. It doesn't stack up.

Everything else is immaterial really if you can't get the project off the ground.

[joe3576]

Steve,

Marco is exactly right to be honest.

Let's just move on from moving away from the Brandywell, and just concentrate on making the best of the Brandywell if we can.

These arguments about moving away from the Brandywell are now a bit tiresome to be honest, and keep coming up every 3-4 months.

Behind the scenes we do not know if there is a possibility that the Brandywell could be bought in the long term, which would solve all the problems in one go. If the Council are going to allow POD to pay for this new stand and potentially over works at the ground - then it is very likely that the above is a possibility in the long term, POD is not stupid and I would reason that he is aware that in the long term this could be an option. If we continue to do well on the pitch and european football becomes a regular event - then the discussions will ramp up.

In the next few years due to Budget constraints, you will see local councils disposing of sports facilities to sports clubs, this in fact is already happening here in Belfast. So something in my opinion will happen with the Brandywell at some point. We just have to wait it out.

[brandyball]

Just a wee observation when watching pre season game between Man Utd vs Arsenal. The Met Life stadium in New Jersey has natural grass laid on an artificial surface I wonder is that something we could explore?

[marcoloco]

Just a wee observation when watching pre season game between Man Utd vs Arsenal. The Met Life stadium in New Jersey has natural grass laid on an artificial surface I wonder is that something we could explore?

Just a modern version of an artificial surface designed to reduce the occurrence of injuries....

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/360 ... iants-jets

[brandyball]

Just a wee observation when watching pre season game between Man Utd vs Arsenal. The Met Life stadium in New Jersey has natural grass laid on an artificial surface I wonder is that something we could explore?

Just a modern version of an artificial surface designed to reduce the occurrence of injuries....

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/360 ... iants-jets

Pitch didn't look great TBH but probably over used.