Shelbourne Vs Derry City Monday 5th August Match Thread

[Franco]

Good result playing 60 minutes with 10 men. Not sure where the entitlement came from that we should have gone on to win the game? Long way to go, Duff talking about nerves after the game with 11 games to go for them. Bit early for that.

[marcoloco]

Good result playing 60 minutes with 10 men. Not sure where the entitlement came from that we should have gone on to win the game? Long way to go, Duff talking about nerves after the game with 11 games to go for them. Bit early for that.

Shels lost Will Jarvis today - recalled by Hull City.

Maybe Duff knew he was losing a striker and there's not too many of them about. Adds another dimension to things.

[mokendismucker]

Maybe we should be asking why we can't finish games with 11 men still on the park?

Last night was our first red card in the league all season. You really think that's another stick we should be beating the manager with?

[mokendismucker]

Maybe we should be asking why we can't finish games with 11 men still on the park?

Last night was our first red card in the league all season. You really think that's another stick we should be beating the manager with?

Of course it was. And of course it is. Everything is his fault, except when we win. And then it’s the opposition’s fault……

[eugenio]

listen i’m no stats man but here are facts Kavanagh lost us 9! points through. stupid gouls allied to a dreadful. huffy back pads o Reilly sent off at z shels last year when we had the game sewed up O reilly sent off in Europe Dialo 2 horror tackles 2,pens points dropped esp at Sligo when we were in control Prior to game the boss and his possee of team analysts. ? should analyse the ref the Shels attitude and warnthe players but what did we do 10 fouls in 40 mins This is down to someone I watch some specific parts and our fouls are v v v offten sheer stupidity We do foul a lot and if it’s costing us SOMEONE MUST ACT
and like last time it is costing us

[marcoloco]

Last night was our first red card in the league all season. You really think that's another stick we should be beating the manager with?

Of course it was. And of course it is. Everything is his fault, except when we win. And then it’s the opposition’s fault……

The manager assumes responsibility for everything - win, lose or draw.

Trailing Shels by 3 (to 6 points) and we we're embarrassed in Europe by Bruno's Bar. These are on the manager. We're not out of the race for the league but games are running out. And we have the Cup as a safety net. So if the manager turns it around then he will get all the plaudits (and deservedly so) and if he doesn't he will likely get released. Simple really.

[TenaciousDee]

Eugene, I am going agree with you on the lack of discipline. Recently we have made some silly errors in judgement, such as Todd's second yellow. He had support behind him, he came deep into the opposition half to cover the man and made a silly mistake whilst on a yellow. That could be down to the lack of game time and sharpness. The fella has been struggling with his confidence since the Bohs game earlier in the year.

Our players have received a number of cards this past few months for descent, Connolly received another for that reason protesting Todd's second yellow. During the European ties the team was warned of the new rules regarding approaching officials but numerous times they ignored it. Say what you like about the officials at the Brandywell during the second leg but they were lenient on violations to the new rule.

[marcoloco]

Eugene, I am going agree with you on the lack of discipline. Recently we have made some silly errors in judgement, such as Todd's second yellow. He had support behind him, he came deep into the opposition half to cover the man and made a silly mistake whilst on a yellow. That could be down to the lack of game time and sharpness. The fella has been struggling with his confidence since the Bohs game earlier in the year.

Our players have received a number of cards this past few months for descent, Connolly received another for that reason protesting Todd's second yellow. During the European ties the team was warned of the new rules regarding approaching officials but numerous times they ignored it. Say what you like about the officials at the Brandywell during the second leg but they were lenient on violations to the new rule.

I would expect that the cards are a result of frustrations and pressure to win - this was evident v Bruno's Bar. It was a cup game and we knew we had to win. Players were hyped and imploded. Possibly they same problem with Todd last night. Too keen to impress and limited game time probably contributing factors.

[magspat]

No harm to Todd but he shouldn't be allowed near the place liability every time he passes the ball back to Maher my hearts is in my mouth after the Bohs match ,Ship him back to harps or inistute if they want him.

[eugenio]

Eugene, I am going agree with you on the lack of discipline. Recently we have made some silly errors in judgement, such as Todd's second yellow. He had support behind him, he came deep into the opposition half to cover the man and made a silly mistake whilst on a yellow. That could be down to the lack of game time and sharpness. The fella has been struggling with his confidence since the Bohs game earlier in the year.

Our players have received a number of cards this past few months for descent, Connolly received another for that reason protesting Todd's second yellow. During the European ties the team was warned of the new rules regarding approaching officials but numerous times they ignored it. Say what you like about the officials at the Brandywell during the second leg but they were lenient on violations to the new rule.

I would expect that the cards are a result of frustrations and pressure to win - this was evident v Bruno's Bar. It was a cup game and we knew we had to win. Players were hyped and imploded. Possibly they same problem with Todd last night. Too keen to impress and limited game time probably contributing factors.

Marco I’d totally disagree as these decisions that cost us were not frustration tackles Eg DIALO at Sligo We were cruising Kavaaghascwhen we had game sewed up ,O Reilly diving ,Todd miles from danger This is not frustration…. it’s stupidity…. Connelly looking like a booking for his mouth now every game he’s at it …. We are on top of these teams …then this stupid stupid tactic of silly fouls …It’s indiscipline and this is the MANAGERS province We are throwing games away not to frustration but stupidity I I ve focussed on this part I sdmit watched and watched and now am convinced refs talking say ‘Keep an eye on Derry there a bit nasty “ so we have made a rod for our own back. Now ANALYSTS whoever you are analyse that .

[PauliAlonso]

Maybe we should be asking why we can't finish games with 11 men still on the park?

Last night was our first red card in the league all season. You really think that's another stick we should be beating the manager with?

That's 2 reds in our last 3 games. Both costly i'm sure you'll agree?

A red card is almost always costly but you're making a big deal out of a teeny tiny sample size, totally ignoring the ZERO red cards in the preceding ~25 games. By your logic, I could argue that we didn't lose any those last three games (two wins and a draw), therefore I think that Higgins should start every game with 10. Nonsense.

And regarding some follow-up posts about our "terrible" lack of discipline - we're top of the fair play table.

I can understand certain criticisms of the manager but for people to make up their own issues, based entirely on make-believe and their own biases against the man, that's bullsh*t.

[marcoloco]

You make a good point. No red cards in 25 games then 2 reds in the last 3 games.

Unfortunately this is the business end of the season.

[PauliAlonso]

Unfortunately this is the business end of the season.

True, and let's all see how it works out before panning the manager.

[marcoloco]

Unfortunately this is the business end of the season.

True, and let's all see how it works out before panning the manager.

Don't understand some of the comments at all.

Someone above said no we're not shite... when clearly no one has said that.

And you talking about panning the manager - again, i'm struggling to find anyone doing that on here?

The manager is a great lad, an ex-player that everyone remembers fondly, but as a manager there's a frustration that we've not kicked on and that we are too conservative and that this style of play and his decision making has actually hindered our play. That's what ppl discuss. Many think this was the season that we could have won the league and got through a round in Europe. That's now looking unlikely. Some are frustrated by that and some clearly aren't.

[joe3576]

Unfortunately this is the business end of the season.

True, and let's all see how it works out before panning the manager.

Don't understand some of the comments at all.

Someone above said no we're not shite... when clearly no one has said that.

And you talking about panning the manager - again, i'm struggling to find anyone doing that on here?

The manager is a great lad, an ex-player that everyone remembers fondly, but as a manager there's a frustration that we've not kicked on and that we are too conservative and that this style of play and his decision making has actually hindered our play. That's what ppl discuss. Many think this was the season that we could have won the league and got through a round in Europe. That's now looking unlikely. Some are frustrated by that and some clearly aren't.

Marco's point is exactly spot on - there is clearly a lot of people who jump straight on and attack anyone who dares question the manager. Yet surely after 3.5 years we are allowed to question some of the decisions ?

This season I think we all agree has seen a big drop in standards. Shels to be top sums it all up. Rovers have been poor, Dundalk rubbish, Pats dreadful, Bohs well short. So in my opinion, I really believe that the league has been there for the taking, but we have been poor also.

Part of the reason that we have been poor, is that we have such a rigid style of playing that never changes. The manager, who undoubtedly is a very decent guy and clearly well respected is in charge of this system and how we play. We play a possession based game that is the fad, it only seems to work when the opposition are extremely poor. Our wins this season have been only against teams who have been dreadful on that particular day:

Waterford 3 times - were dreadful each time
Drogheda 2 times at home - Drogheda very poor
Pats 3 times - they were a mess the 3 times we played them
Dundalk once at home - dreadful
Bohs at home - very poor, looking for a point

Yet when we face a team who plays reasonably okay and are well organised, we cannot beat them:

Shels, Rovers, Sligo, Galway to name a few. Dundalk away this year was horrible also (0-0).

If we put last years record into the mix against Rovers, Shels and Sligo -then it gets more worrying, as in the last 15 games against those 3 teams - we have had ZERO wins.

We cannot seem able to change style or formation against these teams, we never revert to a 4-4-2, 0r even 4-3-3 - it is always 4-5-1.

Hoban was scoring 20 plus goals a season in Dundalk when the league was a better standard, now he will score 12-14 in a worse league. Take off the goals v Waterford and Drogheda and he hasn't really done it against in the big sides - although he has suffered at many times from zero service.

I get frustrated as do other fans when games drift along and no changes are made that could win a game. Only once this season has it happened (Bohs away) - Mullan came on as an extra striker, and McJannett thrown forward as a make-shift left winger. Both combined for the winning game - 5 minutes later.

My fear is that this pattern will continue to the end of the season, we will probably beat Dundalk, beat Waterford, draw with Galway and then fail to beat Rovers at home, maybe then a win against Bohs, but then no wins away to Pats and Drogheda and a draw with Shels at the end - and we come home again 2nd or 3rd with the same points as the last 2 seasons.

To me, it makes no odds of you could 2nd, 3rd or 4th - if we don't win in this year. Why no throw off the shackles and try and win each game - why not even with 10 men go with 2 up front against Shels for 15 minutes and try and get a 1-0 win. Shels were so poor, that the game didn't change much with us having a man short. O' Reilly is so good, that he doesn't need 3 in midfield, 2 is absolutely fine.

Rovers change their shape all the time, they came to the Brandywell in May and changed completely at half time and took us apart in the second half by playing 3 up front - we never ever do this.

I have always said that the Manager seems to fear defeat, he would rather take the draw as opposed to gambling on the win. This will never win a league and the last 2 seasons have proved that.

With the players we have, in the worst league for years - to not win this league will be a huge disappointment. Next year will be far tougher.

Pats will improve, Bohs clearly will be better, Cork (by their signings over the last 48 hours) will come up very strong, Rovers and Shels again will be there. I fear we are regressing, our squad is ageing and we are very unbalanced, with a lack of striking options up front and well short at the back. Where we to lose say Maher, O'Reilly or say lose Connolly to a long-term injury, we would be in a mess.

We are not attacking the manager, we are merely frustrated as I believe Monday was a great chance for us, but again we settled for the inevitable point.

[PauliAlonso]

Unfortunately this is the business end of the season.

True, and let's all see how it works out before panning the manager.

Don't understand some of the comments at all.

Someone above said no we're not shite... when clearly no one has said that.

And you talking about panning the manager - again, i'm struggling to find anyone doing that on here?

Whilst it's difficult to convey or interpret tone on an online message board, your comment about "we should be asking we can't finish a game with 11 men" was clearly accusatory, against the manager/management team. And if someone has an opinion that we should think about changing the manager, fine, that will often be the case. But when that opinion is based on lies or mistruths, I can't stomach that. Your "2 reds in 3 games" bit is confirmation bias. You want Higgins gone and you'll only see info that backs that up, ignoring the aforementioned 25 games without a red. Similarly, the people referencing our apparently woeful disciplinary record - also wrong.

Joe has at least raised issues (that many other fans have) that are based on fact and those can be discussed (style of play, performances against "top" sides). There'll be plenty of people who side with Joe and others who disagree. All fine. That's the nature of football and being a football fan. But criticising the manager based on lies is wrong.

[PauliAlonso]

True, and let's all see how it works out before panning the manager.

Don't understand some of the comments at all.

Someone above said no we're not shite... when clearly no one has said that.

And you talking about panning the manager - again, i'm struggling to find anyone doing that on here?

The manager is a great lad, an ex-player that everyone remembers fondly, but as a manager there's a frustration that we've not kicked on and that we are too conservative and that this style of play and his decision making has actually hindered our play. That's what ppl discuss. Many think this was the season that we could have won the league and got through a round in Europe. That's now looking unlikely. Some are frustrated by that and some clearly aren't.

Marco's point is exactly spot on - there is clearly a lot of people who jump straight on and attack anyone who dares question the manager. Yet surely after 3.5 years we are allowed to question some of the decisions ?

Absolutely we can, and you did it in your latest reply. My issue is with people who criticise the manager based on lies. That's all. Anyone who wants to have a go at Ruaidhri, go ahead (I did it enough when Decky was here - both times) but back it up. Making up stats, or highlighting patterns that don't exist, is out of order.

[mokendismucker]

Don't understand some of the comments at all.

Someone above said no we're not shite... when clearly no one has said that.

And you talking about panning the manager - again, i'm struggling to find anyone doing that on here?

The manager is a great lad, an ex-player that everyone remembers fondly, but as a manager there's a frustration that we've not kicked on and that we are too conservative and that this style of play and his decision making has actually hindered our play. That's what ppl discuss. Many think this was the season that we could have won the league and got through a round in Europe. That's now looking unlikely. Some are frustrated by that and some clearly aren't.

Marco's point is exactly spot on - there is clearly a lot of people who jump straight on and attack anyone who dares question the manager. Yet surely after 3.5 years we are allowed to question some of the decisions ?

Absolutely we can, and you did it in your latest reply. My issue is with people who criticise the manager based on lies. That's all. Anyone who wants to have a go at Ruaidhri, go ahead (I did it enough when Decky was here - both times) but back it up. Making up stats, or highlighting patterns that don't exist, is out of order.

Agree 100%.

[marcoloco]

Don't understand some of the comments at all.

Someone above said no we're not shite... when clearly no one has said that.

And you talking about panning the manager - again, i'm struggling to find anyone doing that on here?

The manager is a great lad, an ex-player that everyone remembers fondly, but as a manager there's a frustration that we've not kicked on and that we are too conservative and that this style of play and his decision making has actually hindered our play. That's what ppl discuss. Many think this was the season that we could have won the league and got through a round in Europe. That's now looking unlikely. Some are frustrated by that and some clearly aren't.

Marco's point is exactly spot on - there is clearly a lot of people who jump straight on and attack anyone who dares question the manager. Yet surely after 3.5 years we are allowed to question some of the decisions ?

Absolutely we can, and you did it in your latest reply. My issue is with people who criticise the manager based on lies. That's all. Anyone who wants to have a go at Ruaidhri, go ahead (I did it enough when Decky was here - both times) but back it up. Making up stats, or highlighting patterns that don't exist, is out of order.

My concerns with the manager's style of play are well documented on here long before the 2 recent red cards. And you know that too. The reference to the 2 red cards was made in response to recent events because we've had two sending offs in the last 3 big games. Its hardly a lie or an attack on the manager as you would like to put it. Its factual. I'm asking the question - what's going on all of a sudden that we can't keep 11 men on the park? I've even explained it in another post - pressure to win games now is having an impact. We are in the business end of the season where there is no room for errors.

What gets me is ppl trying to shut down any conversation about our tactics - ppl jumping to the defence of the manager and refusing to accept any of his shortcomings. Refusing to accept that we should be doing better and criticising anyone that dares to share a different opinion to their own.

[eugenio]

the Forum has sort of shifted to love Higging or be branded a non fan let’s ask one question Overall have the type of football served up been mind bendingly boring
I’m not into stats other than recording the fouls that cost us but but but Would 3 victories in each season have won us the league 3. only 9 points Mullan scored 2 beauties lately and is left out
So I’m not on here to slam the Manager but just to be sad about what might have been